The battery technology is just not keeping up. The Air car seems to be a very good alternative to run clean car. See the link.
The air car is very cool. It holds lots of energy right now, is clean, and plugs in just like an EV. I personally think people should think of this as an Electric car, that uses a compressed air battery.
A friend of mine has lots of experience with these super high pressure tanks, and says they are totally safe. He has shot them at 4000psi with just air seeping out, no explosion, no spinning tank, ETC. he says safety is just not an issue.
Thanks for bringing this up, I had forgot about this. BTW, these can be purchased today for $20,000, and drive 200mi. @ 60mph, Eric
yea those air cars DEFINATELY have possibilities… but i dont like their current motor designs… i think there are WAY better designs to avoid so much friction taking away from the power and its over all potential.
I think something like a rotary design would work way better (almost like a turbo)
just sucks that compressing air never gets above 30% efficiency. It takes electricity to compress, and its mechanically inefficient.
Unless they can reinvent a way to compress the air, I don’t know that I’d really consider it that viable. I’d like to see some real world cost details of how much power it uses, in kWh
[QUOTE=frodus;1646]just sucks that compressing air never gets above 30% efficiency. It takes electricity to compress, and its mechanically inefficient.
Unless they can reinvent a way to compress the air, I don’t know that I’d really consider it that viable. I’d like to see some real world cost details of how much power it uses, in kWh[/QUOTE]
Funny, i designed an air power car back about 4-5 years ago using high strength hydraulics, to fill the 3 pumps on board, all 3 would slowly switch off taking in some air and then recompressing it to a high compression to be used for about 4-5 min and then once that air pressure is nearly depleated then it would switch to tank #2 while tank #1 was recompressing air, with #3 finishing up its compression. (view diagram)
#1 ----[]:
#2 --[]:::
#3 -----[]
its set up alot like an IC motor, but it does it REALLY slowly and at the end of the compression chamber its got a nozle to let the air escape through the motor making the power.
nice thing about hydraulics is is that they are reasonably light weight, does alot with a little, and very simple to setup/repair.
there are ways that make it more efficent, just you need to take simple solutions to do it.
well, you may have made an EASY way to compress the air, but unless you’ve got calculations on energy in vs. energy out, I don’t know that I can believe that its very efficient.
efficiency = Useful total power output (output of air motor) / Total Power Input (electricity to drive the hydraulics)
Not sure what you were using, but I assume a electrical hydraulic pump. You’re using electricity to pump a viscous fluid (hydraulic oil) through pipes into cylinders to compress ANOTHER fluid (Air) into a tank. Then that goes into an air powered motor. Please clarify the system for me, in case I’m not understanding right.
Do the calculation for me with your numbers, and tell me what the efficiency of the system is, all the way through.
"there are ways that make it more efficent, just you need to take simple solutions to do it. "
I’m not so sure you’re making it MORE efficient. You’re using 2 compressors. One to supply the hydraulics, and the hydraulics to pump the air. You have 2 input/output nodes before you even get to the tank. I see your point, but show me some numbers. Its NOT that efficient. Could you please post the calculations showing the input/output numbers for me? I’m interested now that you seem to think its more efficient.
[QUOTE=frodus;1652]well, you may have made an EASY way to compress the air, but unless you’ve got calculations on energy in vs. energy out, I don’t know that I can believe that its very efficient.
efficiency = Useful total power output (output of air motor) / Total Power Input (electricity to drive the hydraulics)
Not sure what you were using, but I assume a electrical hydraulic pump. You’re using electricity to pump a viscous fluid (hydraulic oil) through pipes into cylinders to compress ANOTHER fluid (Air) into a tank. Then that goes into an air powered motor. Please clarify the system for me, in case I’m not understanding right.
Do the calculation for me with your numbers, and tell me what the efficiency of the system is, all the way through.
"there are ways that make it more efficent, just you need to take simple solutions to do it. "
I’m not so sure you’re making it MORE efficient. You’re using 2 compressors. One to supply the hydraulics, and the hydraulics to pump the air. You have 2 input/output nodes before you even get to the tank. I see your point, but show me some numbers. Its NOT that efficient. Could you please post the calculations showing the input/output numbers for me? I’m interested now that you seem to think its more efficient.[/QUOTE]
sorry i’m thinking on a different level using the motor i’m developing as opposed to batteries or other such energy producers.
so far my motor is 3,600:1 in efficency (rough estimate) thus making an air powered car VERY efficent (better at higher speeds than electric motors at least since you physically have something forcing the engine to move at specific pressures as opposed to a gearing/power ratio of an electric motor)
I gotcha. Yeah, energy comes from somewhere. But once its THERE, I’m sure the air powered motors are pretty good.
It just takes a lot to put the pressure IN, unless its done on a large scale where efficiencies are reduced.
Do you have info on your projects on a website?
[QUOTE=frodus;1655]Do you have info on your projects on a website?[/QUOTE]
not yet, i’m waiting till i get some stuff finalized (final numbers) before i start advertising for big time investors via a website.
oh, fair enough, just sounds interesting.
Yea I agree that, although clean, air cars aren’t practical if the efficiency is not much higher than internal combustion.
Electric vehicles (electricity as fuel), with lead acid batteries alone, are higher efficiency than any other mode of transportation (ok besides bicycling). Only way to move is up when you consider other more efficient battery technologies like Li-Ion and NiMH and the EEStor capacitors.
I have to keep telling people this 
it DEPENDS on how you define efficiency. The advantage of an EV or AIR car is that its CHEAPER not so much or neccessarily more efficient (though that helps)
with an AIR car “I” can still provide my own fuel (Electricity for the compressor) rather than pay someone ELSE for fuel at a pump.
Thats the point. I don’t care what the range or speed is as long as its enough (50mph 70 miles) thats all I need
[QUOTE=nerys;1762]I have to keep telling people this it DEPENDS on how you define efficiency. The advantage of an EV or AIR car is that its CHEAPER not so much or neccessarily more efficient (though that helps)
with an AIR car “I” can still provide my own fuel (Electricity for the compressor) rather than pay someone ELSE for fuel at a pump.
Thats the point. I don’t care what the range or speed is as long as its enough (50mph 70 miles) thats all I need :-)[/QUOTE]
exactly…
heck even to have an on board generator pumping the air… it wouldn’t be so bad… your still using 1/8th the ammount of fuel you were before… (maybe even better than 1/8th)
[QUOTE=nerys;1762]with an AIR car “I” can still provide my own fuel (Electricity for the compressor) rather than pay someone ELSE for fuel at a pump.[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry I don’t get what you mean.
Providing your own fuel (electricity), even if it were 100% free after breaking even on a solar panel system, would be less efficient to pump air into storage and then use it to move you down the road as compared to using that same 100% free electricity in an electric vehicle.
because I am legally forbidden from building an electric car until someone either usurps chevron’s patent OR finds a way around it.
SO air might be a valid alternative. Possible even AIR and EV together. AIR to get you going (the hardest part) and EV for cruising who knows.
The point is NOT efficiency. its COST SAVINGS and Secondarily CLEAN savings.
First I want to SAVE money. I prefer COAL over oil at least the COAL comes from the USA. Solar is even better.
Your right. ANY use of Electricity besides putting it into a battery will always be less efficient with Hydrogen being the WORST offender.
Its not as good as batteries but seeing as I am not legally permitted to have the batteries I have to find some other way. IF air can do it and cheap enough I will jump all over it.
[QUOTE=nerys;1778]because I am legally forbidden from building an electric car until someone either usurps chevron’s patent OR finds a way around it.
SO air might be a valid alternative. Possible even AIR and EV together. AIR to get you going (the hardest part) and EV for cruising who knows.
The point is NOT efficiency. its COST SAVINGS and Secondarily CLEAN savings.
First I want to SAVE money. I prefer COAL over oil at least the COAL comes from the USA. Solar is even better.
Your right. ANY use of Electricity besides putting it into a battery will always be less efficient with Hydrogen being the WORST offender.
Its not as good as batteries but seeing as I am not legally permitted to have the batteries I have to find some other way. IF air can do it and cheap enough I will jump all over it.[/QUOTE]
why can you not use the batteries? just because they have a pattent on them doesn’t mean you cant build them unless by contract you specifically are excluded from construction of them… you can build them, but you just cant sell them.
as far as doing this setup… your best bet would be something that easily refills an air canister giving you consistant air flow, it ISN"T hard to make it a VERY efficent design you just have to be creative with it.
Ok lets clarify. DO YOU have the technical know how finances and equipment to BUILD Nickle Metal Hydride Batteries in your house?
I did not think so. What this means is I have to BUY them from someone.
That means someone must invest 10;'s of millions of dollars in a factory to atually BUILD these batteries.
THAT company can not legally do so without be SUED into non existence by Chevron.
THAT is why I am not allowed to legally have the batteries I need. NO ONE can build them without permission (thats what it means to have a PATENT) and since they will not give permission … Making sense now?
If it was so easy for us to BUILD giant NIMH batteries in our basements Electric Cars would be the least of our concerns
OH and technically EVEN IF I WAS a multi millionaire who could afford to BUILD my own NIMH battery pack (LFF NIMH) I am still LEGALLY barred from doing so without PERMISSION. Again thats what a patent is for.
[QUOTE=nerys;1805]Ok lets clarify. DO YOU have the technical know how finances and equipment to BUILD Nickle Metal Hydride Batteries in your house?
I did not think so. What this means is I have to BUY them from someone.
That means someone must invest 10;'s of millions of dollars in a factory to atually BUILD these batteries.
THAT company can not legally do so without be SUED into non existence by Chevron.
THAT is why I am not allowed to legally have the batteries I need. NO ONE can build them without permission (thats what it means to have a PATENT) and since they will not give permission … Making sense now?
If it was so easy for us to BUILD giant NIMH batteries in our basements Electric Cars would be the least of our concerns
OH and technically EVEN IF I WAS a multi millionaire who could afford to BUILD my own NIMH battery pack (LFF NIMH) I am still LEGALLY barred from doing so without PERMISSION. Again thats what a patent is for.[/QUOTE]
The patent holds that Large Format NiMH batteries are held for Cobyasis (Chevron) distribution in vehicles, and only by agreement or contract.
You CAN still buy relatively large cells for use in an EV. Now try and SELL that EV, maybe you’d have problems… Check out:
Ok now I see. First you and me have very different concepts of LARGE format cells. I guess that was my fault for not clarifying. Most people really have no idea how much POWER you need to run a Car. LOW power compared to what a GAS engine uses but VERY high power compared to the things that average people are used to putting batteries in.
9ah is NOT large format to me. I can buy 10ah D cells and 20AH M cells.
Do the math. If you needed a 100ah 120v battery pack you would need 55 of those 9ah batteries. Ouch
I can already guess there is no way in hell I am going to be able to afford that and thats not even counting chargers to charge up 55 of those buggers.
That other link is non usable lithium cells. Non usable to me for many reasons. Unreliable Unsafe ridiculously expensive and finicky. If I could afford that many Lithium cells I could also just buy a Tesla Roadster
[QUOTE=nerys;1809]Ok now I see. First you and me have very different concepts of LARGE format cells. I guess that was my fault for not clarifying. Most people really have no idea how much POWER you need to run a Car. LOW power compared to what a GAS engine uses but VERY high power compared to the things that average people are used to putting batteries in.
9ah is NOT large format to me. I can buy 10ah D cells and 20AH M cells.
Do the math. If you needed a 100ah 120v battery pack you would need 55 of those 9ah batteries. Ouch
I can already guess there is no way in hell I am going to be able to afford that and thats not even counting chargers to charge up 55 of those buggers.
That other link is non usable lithium cells. Non usable to me for many reasons. Unreliable Unsafe ridiculously expensive and finicky. If I could afford that many Lithium cells I could also just buy a Tesla Roadster :-)[/QUOTE]
how about instead of getting all worked up about it you try to figure out a solution… that isn’t the ONLY battery in the world out there that has lots of potential… i know i posted other literature about other battery packs currently being developed. not only that but I’ve been working on ways to eliminate batteries all together… so instead of just complaining about it… work up a solution. if you don’t have the time, money, materials, to do so then what about helping others with their project. you seem like a knowledgeable person so i wouldn’t doubt in the least bit that you could help others out.