Why bother about Electric Car? - Air Car

EV Small Talk Tomorrow's EV
21

Thats just it though no other battery tech is either usable OR available yet.

I AM trying a solution. I plan to see how feasible it is to make a massive array of D cells (I can get them cheap and they come in 10 am flavors) in theory I could make a 96volt 50ah pack with 400 cells for a little under $2,000 (more than I Have but its an idea)

the question is how do you BALANCE 400 cells eventually 800 cells to get 100ah needed to go over 100 miles.

I am even considering selling my 74 VW THING to finance the project but I need to be sure its going to work since I am not likely to find such a nice thing ever again in my budget range :frowning:

I plan to start with my little E Scooter (runs on pair of Gel Cells) convert that to D cells and “see what happens”

if that works well double the size of the pack for more range and “see what happens”

If that works then I want to move up to a human powered EV hybrid bike that can do 50mph and “see what happens”

the scooter is no big deal but anything larger is a LARGE financial investment. I need to be reasonably sure its got a shot at success.

HOW MUCH power will I need to move a 2000 pound minivan (plus mass of batteries) 100miles drop dead range? (using nimh so no 50% dod issues)

I was told IIRC that a 100ah lead pack would do it so does this mean a 50ah NIMH pack would do the same thing? 500 D cells would give me a 120v 50ah pack.

I was thinking of using consumer “smart” chargers. 120 of them (4 batts per charger) this solves my how do I full charge each cell without under or over charging any one cell.

BUT how do I solve the “find” the bad cells issue INEVITABLY with 500 cells some will be bad. How do I find a way to track them without individually cycling EACH cell which would take MONTHS to do. (500 cells !!!)

I would be look at around $5000 unless I find a better deal. $2500-$3000 for the batteries and $2000-$2500 for the 120 chargers.

Leads? not an option. Too Expensive Too Short Range Too much maintenance and Too Heavy for the range I need.

Lithium. Yeah right. Guess WHY the Tesla is $100,000 (6831 Lithium cells is the answer)

New Tech? nothing available yet and what is here is too expensive and unreliable.

Hell I would even be willing to give NiCd a shot if you could reliably FIND the damned things in large sizes and they cost a lot more than nimh when you CAN find them. Remember you would need 80 to 100 of them!! (though that would give you a 160ah pack !! wow !! :slight_smile:

Suggestions?

TatianaFoxy cam

22

[QUOTE=nerys;1814]Thats just it though no other battery tech is either usable OR available yet.

I AM trying a solution. I plan to see how feasible it is to make a massive array of D cells (I can get them cheap and they come in 10 am flavors) in theory I could make a 96volt 50ah pack with 400 cells for a little under $2,000 (more than I Have but its an idea)

the question is how do you BALANCE 400 cells eventually 800 cells to get 100ah needed to go over 100 miles.

I am even considering selling my 74 VW THING to finance the project but I need to be sure its going to work since I am not likely to find such a nice thing ever again in my budget range :frowning:

I plan to start with my little E Scooter (runs on pair of Gel Cells) convert that to D cells and “see what happens”

if that works well double the size of the pack for more range and “see what happens”

If that works then I want to move up to a human powered EV hybrid bike that can do 50mph and “see what happens”

the scooter is no big deal but anything larger is a LARGE financial investment. I need to be reasonably sure its got a shot at success.

HOW MUCH power will I need to move a 2000 pound minivan (plus mass of batteries) 100miles drop dead range? (using nimh so no 50% dod issues)

I was told IIRC that a 100ah lead pack would do it so does this mean a 50ah NIMH pack would do the same thing? 500 D cells would give me a 120v 50ah pack.

I was thinking of using consumer “smart” chargers. 120 of them (4 batts per charger) this solves my how do I full charge each cell without under or over charging any one cell.

BUT how do I solve the “find” the bad cells issue INEVITABLY with 500 cells some will be bad. How do I find a way to track them without individually cycling EACH cell which would take MONTHS to do. (500 cells !!!)

I would be look at around $5000 unless I find a better deal. $2500-$3000 for the batteries and $2000-$2500 for the 120 chargers.

Leads? not an option. Too Expensive Too Short Range Too much maintenance and Too Heavy for the range I need.

Lithium. Yeah right. Guess WHY the Tesla is $100,000 (6831 Lithium cells is the answer)

New Tech? nothing available yet and what is here is too expensive and unreliable.

Hell I would even be willing to give NiCd a shot if you could reliably FIND the damned things in large sizes and they cost a lot more than nimh when you CAN find them. Remember you would need 80 to 100 of them!! (though that would give you a 160ah pack !! wow !! :slight_smile:

Suggestions?[/QUOTE]

like i said… i’m working on ways of getting rid of batteries for the most part… :wink:

23

What could possibly be more efficient lower cost overall and lower maintenance than batteries ? NOW you got me curious?

For Example to me an AIR engine is UNDESIRABLE. its a “band aid” till we get our batteries. with an air car you gonna still have the high cost and the maintenance and break downs. ??

Marijuana Card

24

[QUOTE=nerys;1817]What could possibly be more efficient lower cost overall and lower maintenance than batteries ? NOW you got me curious?

For Example to me an AIR engine is UNDESIRABLE. its a “band aid” till we get our batteries. with an air car you gonna still have the high cost and the maintenance and break downs. ??[/QUOTE]

air cars aren’t that bad… think about it… you have a compressor running at a gas station refilling cars (use solar panels)… the cars dont burn anything just use compressed air to move (same setup as a gas motor for the most part)

I dont see how its a band aid… its a good idea no need for gas TONS of air available, and can be used in many sized vehicles.

as far as my meathod, it uses magnets thats all i’m going to say for now.

25

I guess you have not used too many compressors in your time and seen how often and easily they “break down” anything put under that kind of CONSTANT stress is prone to maintenance issues and these compressors will make “gas station” compressors seem like you putting a straw to your tire. They have to generator insane amounts of pressure far far in excess of what even heavy duty shop compressors can even dream off.

How often are you going to have to replace the tanks in your car? Pressure vessels can only take so many “cycles” before they are stressed beyond safe limits (talk to a scuba tank filler for one example of this)

To make it worse the nature of an AIR car means mass is even more important than with Electric cars. This means mass of the tanks is an issue so you can not just “make them stronger”

I think air cars are fantastic. If I could get one of those french cars cheap I would take it. but it IS in fact a very simple band aid while we wait for batteries.

EV’s are virtually ZERO maintenance and in theory designed properly are virtually ever lasting. They should easily more than outlive there owners.

Magnets are never an ideal solution there heavy delicate and very “short range” in there field effect. You also usually need to semi conduct to really get a good bang for the buck. that requires electricity.

Also with Air cars AIR is not the fuel ELECTRICITY is. Your just inefficiently transferring the energy from electricity into compressed air. AIR cars will use twice as much electricity as an EV would but thats still 1/3 or better than what a gas car uses and still withing the realm of solar power (selling back to the grid to offset compressor power usage) You can’t afford the solar array to power the compressor directly :slight_smile:

The one good thing is you might be able to use the air tank in a “free” air conditioning system since they should get pretty darned cold as you drive the car :slight_smile: (expansion of gas lowers temperature)

Playful_Baby cam

26

wow i dont think you get it… lol i’ll explain to you how its setup… and i’ll answer all your questions in turn.

say we make this the simplist setup possible… on the air car all it houses is air tanks no generator to produce air…

what it would consist of for a mechanical basis to get it to move is a piston driven motor (just like an ICE but not burning anything), a drive train (nothing to do with air part of it since its just like a normal drive train), and 3 to 4 composit tanks.

with that setup say you have to replace your tanks every 10,000 miles… they will more than likely be a universal part and will simply be unloaded and then reloaded under the car. not a big deal… you do oil changes now to your car every 3,000 miles… so far… i see no big difference…

as far as refilling goes… I have a 65 gallon air compressor in my garage at home (sorry but i have delt with my fair share of compressors) and you would fill individual tanks to an optimum pressure, more than likely by computer, it would go on to the next tank so that it would be very easy to fill (its easier to fill one tank at a time than all 4 to a high pressure)

the air compressor at say a gas station even if it had to be maintained every day… isn’t all that complex… its all “making” the fuel there ON site i could rebuild an air compressor motor in my sleep, they aren’t horibly advanced machines.

[QUOTE=nerys;1821]
How often are you going to have to replace the tanks in your car? Pressure vessels can only take so many “cycles” before they are stressed beyond safe limits (talk to a scuba tank filler for one example of this)[/quote]

answered ^^ up there (for guesses sake, i’ll say 10,000 miles) all depends on the quality of the material for the tanks and the connectors and what not.

[QUOTE=nerys;1821]
To make it worse the nature of an AIR car means mass is even more important than with Electric cars. This means mass of the tanks is an issue so you can not just “make them stronger”[/quote]

air tanks ARE very strong believe it or not, they’ve been using a kevlar/carbonfiber weave that is stronger than the steel and much lighter weight, not to mention MUCH safer as well (wont explode, but instead just simply crack and release pressure in a controlled fashion)

[QUOTE=nerys;1821]
I think air cars are fantastic. If I could get one of those french cars cheap I would take it. but it IS in fact a very simple band aid while we wait for batteries.[/quote]

i dont know about bandaid, but definately has a decent future…

[QUOTE=nerys;1821]
EV’s are virtually ZERO maintenance and in theory designed properly are virtually ever lasting. They should easily more than outlive there owners.[/quote]

you said it “should” BUT the batteries that currently out yet… make it not so. I agree EV’s are great, BUT the construction of them will remain expensive until mass production begins… an air car already has all current technology out there and ready to use. Until electric motors come down in price, and batteries figure out what to do and how to do it properly, then again… for the time being the air car is the way to go. (for the moment)

[QUOTE=nerys;1821]
Magnets are never an ideal solution there heavy delicate and very “short range” in there field effect. You also usually need to semi conduct to really get a good bang for the buck. that requires electricity.[/quote]

ALL depends on what you do with it. if you design something to take advantage of its weight, then your fine. and what do you mean by short range? last time i checked it wasn’t like you could stick a magnet in a box then expect it to move a vehicle somewhere…

electricity is easy to get for a semiconductive magnet :wink: MANY power sources out there.

as far as MY design. you dont know what it consists of yet, so i suggest you wait and see before taking a stance on it.

[QUOTE=nerys;1821]
Also with Air cars AIR is not the fuel ELECTRICITY is. Your just inefficiently transferring the energy from electricity into compressed air. AIR cars will use twice as much electricity as an EV would but thats still 1/3 or better than what a gas car uses and still withing the realm of solar power (selling back to the grid to offset compressor power usage) You can’t afford the solar array to power the compressor directly :-)[/quote]

yes electricity is still technically the fuel, which is the same case for an EV, taking the power from somewhere (grid) to transfer it to batteries to transfer it to an electric motor…

sorry but your statements have no good structure. (not saying you dont make any valid points)

either way, we are taking something from a large power source in some way shape or form, and making it fit a smaller form (either electricity, air, ect) to allow us to use it on a mass scale…

in all honesty… with as much power is needed to get an electric car running and keep it going… you could in the over all scheme of things power an air car for less power.

EV takes a minimum of 1 hour to fill 80% capacity (currently) and thats consistant power leaking into the batteries.

an air car takes about the same ammount of time to fill as gasoline.

[QUOTE=nerys;1821]
The one good thing is you might be able to use the air tank in a “free” air conditioning system since they should get pretty darned cold as you drive the car :slight_smile: (expansion of gas lowers temperature)[/QUOTE]

definately!!! :smiley:

one more thing to add… I like both EV’s and Air Cars, both have zero emissions, few moving parts, and similar to improved performance of that of current automobiles.

honestly Nerys, i suggest you look into the air car some more i think you will really like the mechanical aspects of it alot.

27

Well lots of mistakes there but anyway.

The last I checked you do not posses and are not likely to posses the compressor technology needed to make an air car work.

We are not talking the few hundreds PSI you can generate with your 65gallon compressor. We are talking THOUSANDS of PSI. Last I checked its about 6 hours to “fill up” an air cars tanks at home.

The problem at home is NOT air pressure and EV batteries. its the numbers of AMPS you have running to your HOUSE man.

EV’s can be recharged in MINUTES just like a Gas car. Its all bout the amps. if you have a 100ah battery pack. to charge it in one hour you need 100amps of power!! most households max out at 20amps service. You can pay to have a 40amp line installed in most placed.

to charge in 10 minutes you would need 600 amps of power!!

THE SAME applies to your AIR CAR. Its gonna take X amps to fill your car and X will be LARGER than an equivalent EV’s

You have never priced COMPOSITE materials have you. 3 or 4 of your “air tanks” are going to likely cost more than the battery pack in an EV and you want them replaced every 10,000miles? I sure HOPE they last longer than 10k. Ever see an HPA tank for paint balling? thats a fraction of what you would need for an air car and those are already expensive and limited in life span.

I am not saying its a bad idea but it IS just a stop measure till EV tech comes along with a replacement for NIMH’s or we manage to get that Patent from them.

And because your AIR CAR is using a piston engine it has the same expensive maintenance issues. Its not “as bad” as a combustion but its pretty close. you DO have to generate similar amounts of power after all.

An Air car is less efficient than an EV. this is something for which you can not argue against. Trying to shows your not that familiar with the technology. Basic Science conversions are LOSSY.

Using Electricity DIRECTLY will always be more efficient than transferring it through multiple conversions. (this is why Hydrogen SUCKS)

At least with your air car “I” can still make the fuel myself. the problem with the car is that EVEN IF the engine can be made lower maintenance than an ICE engine you now have TWO of them to deal with. The one in your car and the one in your HOUSE.

the ONLY way you an fill your car in your house in MINUTES is to have ANOTHER set of tanks in your house more than TWICE the size of the tanks in your car. (familiar with equalization of air pressure?) and you LOW POWER (40amps or less) air compressor would SLOWLY keep these tanks CONSTANTLY full for your ready access to “fill” your car.

Do you have ANY idea how expensive this is going to be AND DANGEROUS ?

NO your gonna have the slow 6-8 hour fill like us EV guys unless you goto a Fueling station who can afford the MASSIVE high power compressor that would be needed and they can afford to get “wired” for the kind of POWER your gonna need to run that compressor.

Like I said it really is a good idea but I personally would not buy it unless it was VERY affordable to offset the maintenance costs. Those tanks alone are going to cost more than any car I can afford.

Go price the cost to produce a 100 gallon tank able to contain 3,000 psi OR MORE. Your gonna have trouble finding anyone even WILLING to make such a beast not to speak of CAPABLE of making such a critter.

I like the air car a lot. Not because its a competitor to EV’s (not even close) but because its an alternative to Gasoline that MIGHT be within my reach and whos costs are reasonable enough to be offsettable with Solar making the fuel cost near Zero.

But air cars also retain a lot of the stuff I DO NOT want the same stuff that makes me want to NOT own a gasoline car.

Complicated Expensive maintenance prone moving parts. An air car is still going to be laden with these problems.

An electric motor is CHEAP. I mean where else can you get a motor that will require virtually ZERO maintenance and will last nearly forever for 3 grand ? and this is NOT mass produced!!! This is Niche Cottage Industry stuff man !! IMAGINE how cheap that already cheap $3,000 motor will be if they make MILLIONS of them? I can see your Electric Motor cost HUNDREDS of dollars once mass produced.

AN EV IS CHEAP. Do the math. its only about 6-7 grand in components. A Brand new ICE Engine and Transmission cost more than that and AGAIN this is NICHE cottage NON mass produced stuff !! I am AMAZED at how CHEAP an EV really is.

The problem is not the EV the problem is the legal system and the batteries. THE BATTERIES are cheap too!! 10 years ago GM was making them for $4500 and that was in SMALL QUANTITIES !!! Just imagine if they made millions of them!

THATS why I want an EV. NO more repair bills. No more regular moving part maintenance of an ICE No More expensive dealer parts. No More gasoline. No more fuel pumps. Theoretically the LAST car I will ever need to buy. THATS why I want an EV.

An Air car loses most of these advantages. The only thing it has going for it is Clean and I can generate my own fuel. Everything else is no different or worse than an ICE.

Great idea but its burdened with a similar set of problems to an ICE and some NEW ones. Great IDEA. make it cheap enough and I am all for it. but your gonna have a hard time making it cheap enough.

I am not in this to “save the environment” I am in this to “save my wallet and my liberty” Saving the environment is a nice bonus.

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28

lmao, i went to reply and you added another half to the response so i had to go back and read the addition to your edit…

but in response to your posts. the air car isn’t using huge tanks, they are smaller ones. (easier and cheaper to produce)

I see where your comming from with some of those statements but i still think that for countries out there like africa or something or even in the city where there aren’t charging stations all over, one air tank even with lower pressure would be able to provide an unlimited power source for their vehilces for some time.

I guess i dont see cheap the same way you do. I can get ICE motors (high power ones or low fuel consumption ones) for less than $1K easily… along with transmission… so for the time being from my point of view… they are still expensive…

my brain hurts. big calculations at work and trying to debate online isn’t helping lol.

29

Used engines? sure if you compare used to new it will seem expensive. but compare a new EV engine to a brand new Car ICE and suddenly its cheap and remember thats NOT mass produced.

It just shows how cheap EV “can be” or “would be” if an auto maker actually made one. I was not kidding when I said that if GM had continued making EV’s that today we would be driving 500 mile range EV’s that cost under $5k new. They really are just that cheap potentially. Amazing how cheap something becomes when you get rid of 99% of all the moving parts :slight_smile:

Either way your tanks “will” cost significantly more than your used engine and tranny significantly more than my ev and batteries and quite a bit more than a brand new car. Its just so expensive to build such a light pressure vessel to contain SO much pressure. Its amazing how much ENERGY is contained in air when you squish it to thousands of PSI. Your 65 gallon compressor would need to be at least 100 times more powerful than it is now.

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30

[QUOTE=nerys;1830]Used engines? sure if you compare used to new it will seem expensive. but compare a new EV engine to a brand new Car ICE and suddenly its cheap and remember thats NOT mass produced.

It just shows how cheap EV “can be” or “would be” if an auto maker actually made one. I was not kidding when I said that if GM had continued making EV’s that today we would be driving 500 mile range EV’s that cost under $5k new. They really are just that cheap potentially. Amazing how cheap something becomes when you get rid of 99% of all the moving parts :slight_smile:

Either way your tanks “will” cost significantly more than your used engine and tranny significantly more than my ev and batteries and quite a bit more than a brand new car. Its just so expensive to build such a light pressure vessel to contain SO much pressure. Its amazing how much ENERGY is contained in air when you squish it to thousands of PSI. Your 65 gallon compressor would need to be at least 100 times more powerful than it is now.[/QUOTE]

yea compared to a brand new motor with the cost that OEM parts are… sure it would be WAY more expensive…

honestly i’m just irked its taking this long for EV’s to FINALLY start comming out from car companys

31

Composite tanks are readily available, these NOS tanks are only rated at about 2,000 PSI but the technology is proven and mass produced.

http://www.jegs.com/i/NOS/741/14747/10002/-1/747614

Could the air car run using CO2? That way you could carry a lot more fuel in liquid form and there are a lot of infastructure in place to refuel the vehicle. Tanks are available as well. I know some think CO2 is bad but this would be a net Zero CO2 process since it is always being pulled out of the atmosphere and being reused.

Just a thought

32

I’m guessing the energy density is rather low… in the model airplane world, the CO2 powered planes don’t fly nearly as far as the NMH battery powered ones do, but they sure “charge” faster. At least that’s what I’ve seen.

33

Now, here we go. The Compressed-Air powered Car! New from India’s Tata automobile plants, it runs on compressed air. So there’s no pollution.

Let me say that again. It runs on COMPRESSED AIR.
But it also is made out of fiberglass, and glued, not welded. And it’s filled with a massive computer system that gives you, oh, internet access, for one. In a car. And let me just repeat that it runs on air.

34

Hello I’m fairly new to this site, so be gentle…I like the idea of compressed air cars since you can charge and discharge an air receiver an unlimited number of times and also charge it as fast as you want.
I started to realize the draw backs of air when I was thinking about throttling, every time you drop pressure across a valve with a gas you have temperature variations occurring, which also apply when compressing the gas/air, so the efficiency losses start to get very high.
If you can come up with a way to extract energy from the pressure drop you can start to reduce the losses, but compressor losses are hard to avoid. In the end I decided to give air a miss because of the heat/cooling losses.

35

Great for a reefer! 2 for one.

36

I’d love to own an Air Car. I bet it would be expensive.

37

Agree with you
Good desighn is really inportnat for me … :blush:

38

Can’t imagine how much it can cost really :laughing: :laughing: