Ev fraud?

Conversion Kits
1

Looks to me like the golf cart place has accurate published data. 18HP, 650Amps 48Volts, 80 LbFt. Well, even this data seems way off, but atleast the data in their graph coincides with the data in their table.

To me it looks like electricmotorsport.com took the graph, cropped out the motor name and is trying to sell this motor under their own name. Maybe the golf cart store took the graph from ems.com and put their name on the graph?

What gets me is both are claming this motor has 18 hp, and has 80 LbFt of torque but one spec requires 350 Amps instead of 650.

For 81 ftlb at 750 rpm I calc 11.57 hp and 180 amps at 48 volts assuming 100% efficiency. hp = torque * rpm /5252

The numbers don’t add up! Which do you think is the true data?

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php

http://hiperformancegolfcars.com/content/view/3/12/

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2

they ARE selling that motor… whats the big deal? IT IS in fact a High performance golf cart motor… and its matched with an AC controller… they sell the PACKAGE. I talked to a guy there and another at thunderstruck and they both said what motor it was.

Its not unheard of that resellers often label the part number as their own, so you come to them for the RESALE of someone else’s product. Again, they tune it and match the controller/motor and resell both. They said it was a custom wound… do you know that its not a custom motor? The HPGC motors don’t have a face on them, so it IS a custom motor… the HPGC motors don’t have a face because they mount into the differential.

As far as the specs, it doesn’t say that the graph is 48V, so I’m not sure. Call Todd at Electricmotorsport or Brian Hall at Thunderstruck EV. They work on stuff together.

I’d take this post down really quick… don’t accuse someone of fraud, those guys are great guys… Its well known they sell that motor that HPGC sells… and apparently you’re the last to find out. I don’t see anything wrong with resell. They didn’t call it their motor, they’re just selling it… along with all the other products on their page. Isn’t that what a vendor does?

3

Im not accusing anyone of fraud. Title was supposed to be a question, sorry if I lit a flame under anyone’s boots. Both motors are showing identical graphs, with identical output, but one is only consuming half the power. Someone must be exaggerating?

Do you know if electricmotorsports sells the same motor as 18, 25, 26 and 46 hp? They only list the one motor on their website. Maybe they are wound differently? Still I find the graph and specs misleading.

A 145 frame motor is typically 2 hp. It’s quite an accomplishment to get 18 horse out of it (no im not being sarcastic). I just wonder what the duty cycle is, especially since it is an enclosed motor. Motor horsepower is typically limited by heat dissipation

4

So thunderstruck motors has the same graph too. In this case the curve is labeled 48 volts. The specs are identical execpt now the 18 hp motor is rated 6000rpm instead of 5000 rpm. Maybe they took an average between the 5000 and 6500? How does one make an educated decision with such huge differences in specs? Is performace golf carts the oem?

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5

Yes, they are the OEM… what the big deal?

Thunderstruck and Electricmotorsport are vendors for the Highperformance golf cart motors… HPGC does not sell the motor to consumers directly… and they require that vendors sell them matched to a controller for liability issues.

The data out there looks clear to me. On EMS it says 5000rpm and 80ftlbs at 48V. You don’t get 80ftlbs @ 5000RPM. 80 is peak (usually at VERY low RPM, high current), and at 48V its likely that 5000RPM is what the motor will run WITH THAT CONTROLLER. The controller may be programmed to go 5000RPM, its an AC motor, you control the frequency to whatever you want. But, because the high speed, the torque is lower, and EMS likely said they want to set the controller below that. Not many people use a motor in a motorcycle above 5000RPM.

Essentially, you supply higher current to the motor, you get more torque. if the controller is set to 300A you can’t compare it to a 550A controller. its the controller and motor PACKAGE specs they are showing. TS decided to go higher frequency on the 1236 to get higher RPM, but still, peaks out at 80ftlbs at the same current. Its all how you set the controller.

The motor they show is the same motor for all those ratings, and thats not continuous HP, its peak, as it is with MOST EV motors out there. Industrial motors are rated continuous, but their peak is higher. The higher current/voltage you can supply it, the better performance you can get out of it.

I think that EM and TS might not fully know the values they’re quoting, but the motor specs are indeed correct. They might have gotten those values in their table by actually running the motors on a Dyno.

6

And one more thing, can you change the title of the thread, since we’ve established they’re vendors, not fraudulent people? That way when people search, you don’t ruin their name because you don’t think the graphs/data is clear enough.

7

The reason I ask who the OEM is, is because they would have the most credible motor data. If the OEM says the motor requires 650 amps to produce 80 ftlbs then I believe it. I don’t have a problem with a vendor reselling an OEM part, i have a problem with a vendor selling that part and advertising you get the same ouput (max torque) with nearly half the Amps as the OEM.

If Company X makes a light bulb that produces 10000 lumens using 100 watts, and Company Y takes the same bulb, and says it produces 10000 lumens with only 50 watts, that would be decpetive in my mind.

8

that depends on duty cycle :slight_smile:

just being a PITA… lol

but serious, you need to find out from all three the voltage/current and torque/RPM relations.

9

So I talked with someone on the phone at a store that sells these motors.

They didn’t have any motor data for the 18 or 46 horse power motors, I also sent them an email so they can get back to me with hard specs. They did say the 18hp and 46hp are both the same motor with different windings.

Hello?? Red flag anyone?

In the real world, a 145 frame is always a 2 horse motor.

Company A gets 9 times the power out of it.

Company B gets 9 times the power out, but says it does it with half the input power as Company A’s motor.

Company C gets 23 times the power out of the same frame motor.

Are these super-conducting windings cooled with liquid nitrogen?

I think each time this motor passes hands, the spec gets a little more exaggerated.

10

will you relax? thats [B][U]PEAK [/U][/B]horsepower. I’ve seen 2 Hp motors max out at 10 times that… but not continuously… It depends on DUTY CYCLE… as I stated above.

Rated continuous Hp is not likely over 2-3hp at 60hz and 1800rpm. These are using AC controllers, so you can control voltage and current (speed and torque) pretty well… which is Kw… which can be translated to HP. If the motor can handle the voltage and current (even if for a few minutes), it will peak out at that Kw. When you really peg the throttle, I’m sure you might PEAK around 15+Hp, but you’ll likely not see that for more than a few minutes or so.

I know when you see HP, you think “how can they run that continuous for that size motor”… they can’t, and don’t… but don’t say that out loud. They also don’t tell you they can.

Before you discount what I say, Realize that I’m an Electrical Engineer with a background in Industrial controls and automation (motors, VFD’s, robots, hydraulics, pneumatics, PLC’s… ranging in size from a small potato chip packing machine, to a large lumber stacker/sticker placer). I’ve used AC much more than I’ve used DC, and have had to tune the motors/drives/VFD’s to each machine according to motor specs, voltage, speed, ramp rates, braking…etc. I’ve seen many engineers fall into the same assumptions as you, and I’ve tried telling for before… look at the data from the manufacturer and go by that. If you’re so sure about the information being wrong, call TS and EMS and ask them to update their website. I’ve done it before with their sprocket sizing, they updated it. Also realize, that they’re not far off from what the manufacturer is giving them, but maybe there’s a wrong number in there… do you think an engineer creates the website? they probably farmed it out to some college kid… who misread something.

So before you start going off on them… YET AGAIN, read some of the info below… and relax… you’re getting excited over something small.

http://www.cloudelectric.com/motor_information

http://www.onlineconversion.com/motor_horsepower.htm

“Most motors are rated using “Peak HP consumed” which is much higher than “true continuous HP”. Peak HP should not be used in reality since it is mostly a marketing gimmick.”

http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/18.htm

http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml

In the end, what are your specs, requirements and budget? Go by that to find out what YOU need, then find someone to sell it to you. Don’t go by what a salesman/website tells you, often is wrong. I work at Leviton now, on Lighting control systems, and between the Rep, quotes, sales, the customer and Myself… there is a TON that gets misread, misquoted and mis-stated. Its a fact of life. I end up usually contacting the customer and getting the information from the customer directly and designing according to that information. Isn’t that what you want?

11

I understand the difference between peak and continous. Im taking issue with resellers changing the spec from 650amps to 350 amps. This would make a 18 horse motor only capable of 9, but they still sell it as 18hp.

The reseller has a 46 horse motor listed, but the manufacturer says they the biggest motor they sell is 23 horse.

I too am a sr. control engineer. I’ve designed, built and programmed multiaxis coordinated drive systems with over 1000 horsepower. Sounds like we are in the same industry. We work with alot of plastic packaging, extruders, winders, pick and place…

A motor being sold as an EV conversion kit, from a company selling conversion kits would imply it is suitable for such a task. If this 46 horse motor has a continous duty of 2 horse, this is not going to work well. It should not be sold for this application.

I would love to see some specs on these motors, unfortunaly they don’t seem to exist. I called hiperformace golf cars and they said all the specs they have are already online. He said these motors are designed for golf carts, and one accel from 0-25 with a heavy car would overheat the motor. Continuous duty according to the manufacturer is 5hp on any of their AC motors.

Im sure at 50000 amps at 2000 volts, you could get over 1000 horsepower from this motor for about 50mS. For an electric vehicle application, this would obviously not work, and I would say any ev conversion company selling this motor advertised as 1000 horse would be comitting fraud. I’ll be the first in line to call them out on it.

I too have learned not to trust sales guys, that is why im here. Trying to give others a heads up not to believe the specs on this 46 horsepower motor. It is really only 5 hp continous, and according to the manufacturer designed to power up to an 800 lb golf cart.

Im building a hybrid, so I don’t care so much about continous hp, im only using the motor for start and regen. It doesn’t look like this 46 hp motor could even get me to 25 mph once before becomming a paperweight.

12

frodus: Sounds like you know your stuff, so rather than fighting with you… let me ask you for some advice =)

Im planning on using a legacy indramat servo motor. The air gap on Servo motors are typically machined down to the gnats ass. These are contiously rated 57Nm, peak of 130Nm at 222 amps @ 230vac. The water cooled versions are even higher. Im going to use the servo drive designed for the motor, but tap power into the internal 300 vdc bus instead of using the 230vac input connection.

I’d like to find a 6 or 8 pole motor to give me more low end torque, but not limit max speed. Ideally I will direct drive the rear driveshaft. This relates to 3200 rpm at 80mph. The stock gas engine will drive the front wheels. This allows me to accel with gas/brake with electric to charge the battery pack. I figure the electric motor will be useless after 25mph, so above that will be gas.

Indramat is the only large servo motor I can find that runs on 230v or less. This is along the lines of what I’m shopping for. Any ideas?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140234513304&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004

My reason for using AC is for the improved regen cycle, and I also have more experience with ac motors. My understanding of the DC regen cycle is this:

A coil wants to keep current the same, just like a capacitor wants to keep voltage the same.
The drive will:

  1. Reverse field polarity
  2. this causes the drive to pump current into driving the motor backwards.
  3. drive will Short out armature leads.
  4. drive will Open armature leads.

This would normally create a high voltage arc. But since the battery connected at the contacts, the burst of voltage due to the collapsing feild gets pumped into the battery. This seems really inefficient. Is this how dc regen is normally done? Do you know if this is how the ac regen cycle works?

The industrial drives Ive used, the ac drives seem to have much better speed regulation and flat torque up to base speed. Thats why ac is my pref.

13

So we’re both engineers. I used to work in food packaging, then in the Lumber industry, then with power (started up some smelters in Washington). Now I’m in the lighting industry doing energy management.

I didn’t think we were fighting, just that you seemed to be getting excited over whats likely a mistake, either accidental by the webmaster, or purposefully by the sales team. Either way, you’re right, its wrong… Just let them know, and move on. Most places tout overexadgerated specs anyway.

So why a servo motor? Whats the max speed on that? Why don’t you just use the controller for it too, and power the bus from the battery pack. People have done it and it works just fine.

So what vehicle are you doing? How many bats? Could you do 400V or more of some 25Ah+ batteries in the trunk? Then you could likely power the DC-link (DC Bus) of the indramat servo drive. Indramat has braking on the motor and it injects back into the DC bus… at least the ones I used. I’m familiar with Emerson, Allen bradley, indramat and some GE drive systems (worked at GE on wind power for 3-4 years through college).

in EV, AC is a whole different story… same with DC. Series motors don’t provide regen and the controllers out there don’t do it anyway. PM motors do, but you won’t be putting in that large of a PM motor in a car. Sepex will, but there aren’t sepex controllers over 80V. Ac is the only one with regen capability. But is it worth the cost? and gains of having regen? could you just add more bats and get more range without having regen? probably.

Basically, whats the weight and type of the vehicle, range speed etc. Is EV going to be used by itself ever? or is this for support only? Will you ever have the EV side off and drive under ICE power alone to recharge the bats? How much weight can you have in batteries? thats lots of weight anyway, the engine AND batteries… where people usually just replace the engine with bats.

14

Servo motors typically have a lot more horsepower per size. Some even use rare earth magnets. They are also inverter duty rated, and many indramat servos are liquid cooled. If I do the indramat motor, I’d use the indramat drive and run 300 vdc to the bus. I really love the formfactor of the curtis controller though. Max speed on the indramat is 3000 I think. If I can find a 6 pole 1200 rpm motor that would be nice. I get the low end torque, and can still spin it to 3500 rpm.

I’d be willing to do pack voltage up to 300 if I can find a suitable AC Motor. I think using the 84v curtis 1238 ac controller is now out of the question since I can’t find a suitable motor. There is one guy local to me who is using these curtis controllers with two motors on a fiero. Im hoping to meet up with him to see what he’s done, he’s out of the country right now. He is using motors from a dyno.

Im looking to do a proof of concept right now with my land rover discovery. The disco is all aluminum, has a ladder chassis which can support tons of weight. I have heavy duty springs on it. Im planning on keeping the stock aluminum v8, that will run the front wheels. I’ll remove the rear driveshaft and direct drive an electric motor to the rear diff. I can easily charge the batteries by dynamic braking the rear while driving the front with gas. This is the reason I want good regen ability.

I only plan to use electric in stop and go traffic, and maybe accel me to 25mph. again, this is just a proof of concept. The rover weighs in at 4000lbs, but it can carry alot of weight in batteries. Has big disc brakes on all four, and tires that can handle 65 psi and the heavy load.

The dc option is obviously the easier option, and I may still go that route. There are army surplus dc generators with separate field windings rated 30 horse continuous, 70 peak, they sell for around $650. Problem is they are rated 115vdc. No simple way to drive it. An industrial drive system would require AC for the SCRs to fire. LOL, so basically I’d need a ac drive to convert dc to ac, then use the ac to drive the dc drive to run the dc motor. SCR would require a decent sine wave to work properly, and the regen feature of the drive would probably not work doing this.

I could try to build a constant current powersupply or pwm? Motor is rated 200A. If I want to over drive it to get peak hp, I’d probably have to go to 200vdc. And then, still no regen

Since im direct driving the driveshaft, I’d like to find a 2:1 reducer. I could do belts, but it would be nice to find a proper gearbox to bolt on the face of the motor. I was also thinking of a pneumatic or magnetic clutch to disengage the electric motor above 25mph (or whatever max rpm ends up being on the motor). I already have on board air on the rover.

The diff ratio is 3:8, there is also a 4.11 available. The 3.8:1 brings me to 3200 rpm at 85 mph. a 4:1 would get me tons of torque and max speed of 20 something mph.

So to answer your questions:

For my proof of concept:
Weight 4,500 lbs
Type: land rover discovery
Max speed: 85mph with ice
Payload: its rated to tow a 7700lb trailer.
Gross vehicle weight: 6,000 lbs

After my proof of concept, I would like to do a TDI passat or a4/a6 (maybe even a wagon). The car is front wheel drive, but they do make a quattro version. I’d take the rear suspension from the quattro and drive the rear wheels.