Battery question

Since EVs that are converted need to have 12V for the vehicle systems that are not replaced, I’ve seen several suggestions on how to get there. There is one that I’ve seen used in military vehicles (did a year in the Guard as a 63B) that was very simple; the trucks use 24V starting systems, and two 12V batteries in series. The 12V systems are powered by attaching the positive lead directly to the battery in series attached to the ground side. Seems to work fine.

While this is fine for military vehicles that only use the full battery pack for starting, what would the effect of this be on an EV that uses multiple batteries for motive power? Would this drain the one battery more than the rest, or would the load be spread over the entire pack? I know that tapping the battery closest to ground would only put 12V into the system, just not sure if this would mean one battery would die a lot sooner than the rest, which I would see as a negative impact across the entire string. If this would work OK without destroying the entire string, seems like this would be much simpler than a DC converter that drops the full string voltage to 12V.

The truck batteries are being constantly recharged, so it it is the alternator that is loaded, not the battery.

In the EV application, the pack batteries supplying the 12V would be quickly discharged more than the rest and potentially damaged. They would also have different charging requirements because of their different DOD.
-enganear

Kinda what I was figuring. Thanks.

For many conversions I have seen, the radio, headlights, etc. are powered by a separate 12 volt battery that is connected to the main battery pack by a DC to DC converter - which keeps the separate battery charged up. You just charge the battery pack, but never charge the separate battery. As long as the main pack is sufficiently charged, the separate battery is FULLY charged. That way, the headlights should never get dim. If they do, it is because the main pack is almost depleted and you won’t be going anywhere anyway.

The separate battery can be much smaller than the original battery because it is not needed for the more demanding task of starting an internal combustion engine.

[QUOTE=Telco;4381]Since EVs that are converted need to have 12V for the vehicle systems that are not replaced, I’ve seen several suggestions on how to get there. There is one that I’ve seen used in military vehicles (did a year in the Guard as a 63B) that was very simple; the trucks use 24V starting systems, and two 12V batteries in series. The 12V systems are powered by attaching the positive lead directly to the battery in series attached to the ground side. Seems to work fine.

While this is fine for military vehicles that only use the full battery pack for starting, what would the effect of this be on an EV that uses multiple batteries for motive power? Would this drain the one battery more than the rest, or would the load be spread over the entire pack? I know that tapping the battery closest to ground would only put 12V into the system, just not sure if this would mean one battery would die a lot sooner than the rest, which I would see as a negative impact across the entire string. If this would work OK without destroying the entire string, seems like this would be much simpler than a DC converter that drops the full string voltage to 12V.[/QUOTE]

Say, for a 72v system could you wire six 12v batteries in series for the motor, and wire the same six 12v batteries in parallel for the 12v accessories?

[QUOTE=U4edot;4446]Say, for a 72v system could you wire six 12v batteries in series for the motor, and wire the same six 12v batteries in parallel for the 12v accessories?[/QUOTE]

No, that would make a gigantic short circuit. In order to make the series string you’d have to connect the batteries positive terminal to negative terminal, and to make it parallel you’d have to connect it positive to positive and negative to negative. This would be the same thing as taking one battery, and connecting the positive terminal to the negative terminal with a wire. Then you take bets on what will happen first, will the wire melt, or will the battery detonate. Which goes first will depend on the battery charge and the wire diameter. :stuck_out_tongue:

What the question I was asking about would not make a parallel connection on a series connected battery, it just takes a tap in the middle to get a lower voltage. It’s still a series connection. You actually wouldn’t try tapping a parallel battery pack in this manner, as it only matters for voltage, not current. Simply speaking, in general terms, you can put a 12V 1 amp load on a 12V 1 amp battery or a 12V 1 million amp battery, the 12V 1 amp load isn’t going to draw more than the 1 amp. Put it on a 120V battery though, regardless of amperage, and the 12V load will fry.

You can wire the batteries in three configurations, in series, in parallel, or a series-parallel. Let’s say you have six 12V 500 amp batteries to connect.

The series connection will tie the six batteries together by connecting the positive terminal on one battery to the negative terminal of the next battery. In the end for your 72V string you will have six 12V batteries connected positive to negative, with the positive pole on the first battery and the negative pole on the last battery not being connected to anything. When ready for use, the load will be connected to these unused terminals. Electrically, this makes one 72V 500 amp battery.

The parallel connection will tie the six batteries together by connecting the positive poles together, and the negative poles together. In this configuration, all poles will be connected to a pair of bus bars. Usually this is done by putting a pair of bus bars (a solid copper bar) alongside the batteries, with a wire that connects the battery to the bus bar. There will be one on the positive side and one on the negative side. The load will have its own connection to the bus bar, and the bus bars themselves are not connected. Electrically, this makes one 12V 3000 amp battery.

The series-parallel would be wiring several series strings to an equal voltage. Since we need several strings, for this one we will use thirty six 12V 500 amp batteries. This would leave one positive pole not tied to a battery in each series string, and one negative pole not tied to a battery in each series string. These untied poles on each string would be tied together over a pair of bus bars, connecting positive to positive and negative to negative, to make the parallel part. Physically, you will have six strings of batteries connected in parallel, each string will electrically be a 72V 500 amp battery, connected in parallel. Electrically, this will make a single 72V 3000 amp battery.

Telco,

You’re dead nuts on. The tap will drain those batteries first (although slower). The problem does NOT arise much during discharging, but more during charging. The lowest batteries charge differently than the higher batteries… and after a couple of times, you get an unbalanced pack, and you’re pack starts to die.

If you have balancers, you can tap no problem.

Yeah, OK thanks. = )

[QUOTE=frodus;4457]Telco,

You’re dead nuts on. The tap will drain those batteries first (although slower). The problem does NOT arise much during discharging, but more during charging. The lowest batteries charge differently than the higher batteries… and after a couple of times, you get an unbalanced pack, and you’re pack starts to die.

If you have balancers, you can tap no problem.[/QUOTE]

Never heard of a balancer in reference to a battery pack. What exactly is it? If this would allow the battery pack to not die if a 12V tap were taken off the battery pack directly, and wound up being lighter than other methods used, then this might be a better way to go.

Balancer = battery balancer = BMS in most cases.

Essentially, during a charge, it only allows the voltage of a battery to get to a certain level, and blows the rest off as heat (light bulb or resistor). Some systems regulate it. It will allow the low battery to charge however it wants to, and at the end of the pack charge, all batteries will be sitting at the right voltage.

It will work, but long term its not the way to go, because you are puting more stress on that one battery you’re tapping off. It won’t do much harm, but little by little… it’l wear it out faster than the others.

Either install an aux battery, or put a DC-DC converter on…they won’t kill your pack.