Well first off, although I am very savvy as far as mechanics go, I am a total newby at ev. So I have an Idea of what I want as far as performance range etc that I want, but no idea if I can get there and how much it will cost. Here goes, I want to make a 3rd gen. (1992-1995) rx7 into a high performance ev. I want to get 100+ miles in range and have an acceleration comperable to the original ICE. They had 255 hp, but i don’t need the top speed they had. If it will do 100 mph that would be good enough. I realize I probably can’t do this with lead acid batts so I was thinking more along the lines of ion lithium batts, AC motor with regen. I don’t need ac or ps, and as for the heater, I live in Canada so I was gonna use a gas heater of some sort. Also being in a colder climate I was gonna use some kind of batt warmer or something like that. Although at home the car will be kept in a heated garage. I am not adverse to spending 20,000 + for the conversion, plus cost of the car itself. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated:)
Sounds like you have this all figured out.
I’d say that those specs are doable. AC, regen, high end controller, lithium batts.
Very pricey. Very cool. Good luck.
I would recommend you look into battery blankets too. Also, you can add an electric heater in place of the stock heater core. Personally, I wouldn’t want the fire hazard of a gas heater.
well, your budget better be in the neighborhood of 30+ grand, without car.
First off, finding a 200+ hp motor will be spendy… and heavy.
I don’t know of a ton of AC stuff, mostly just DC.
Siemens seems popular, but ACpropulsions is another:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/technology/gen2.htm
for a reality check on prices:
http://www.metricmind.com/prices.htm
For DC:
Lots of guys use larger motors. A warp/netgain 13" or something should do very well.
http://www.go-ev.com/Products.html
You’d need a zilla, so get on the waiting list for a zilla 1k.
http://www.cafeelectric.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1
for lifepo, well, you’ll have to pricing research, but lets estimate 300wh/mile (exessive, but good for an estimate)… and you want 100 miles. you’ll need a 30,000Wh pack. You should probably use 200Ah batteries, and you’d need 150V in 3.2V cells to get that Wh rating. You can series parallel those if you want, but thats just one example of a pack. If you did 150V, that would be 47 3.2V cells, and at 400 a pop, would cost 18,800 just in batteries. Add on a LiFepo charger, battery balancing and monitoring is another few grand.
So thats the power side… control side you need the normal contactor (if you go DC, forward reverse contactor as well), some sort of measuring for battery voltage, current etc. Tachometer for the motor, motor adapter plate, battery boxes, vaccuum pump for brakes, power stearing pump (maybe), motor shaft coupler…
so, I think right now, you’d have to spend quite a bit to get the performance you want. If you scaled back the range a little, to something more realistic (I’m sorry, 100 miles for a sports car that you’ll likely just drive around town in, is a little crazy)… you might be able to decrease the cost of LiFePo by half.
Lead isn’t bad either, its much cheaper, and you can UPGRADE!!!
I appreciate all that info!! Maybe 100 mile range is a little much but I live 60 km(37 approx miles) so I would need at least 80mile range and I heard you dont’ want to drain the batts to nothing so I figured 100+ would be good. But on the other hand 30,000 is over budget so I will have to sacrifice something I suppose. I have looked at the links you sent and DC does look cheaper but can I do regen with DC? Also wouldn’t my car be HEAVY in the extreme using lead batts? RX7’s are fairly light to begin with at 3000 lbs, but I could go with an early 80’s model that is like 2300 lbs. Also I have heard that if one could get into a group to buy ion lith batts they can be purchased up to 40 % cheaper. Have you heard of this? If so that would mean my pack would be around 10,000? Also I won’t be doing this project for 2 more years or so, ( I always like to plan ahead:)) so maybe batts will be cheaper who knows. But back to my original plans if I scaled back to say the eqivalent of 180 hp ICE and kept the weight to say 2500 lbs for an older model(Which are still great looking cars with excellent handling and braking), is 20000+ in range at this level? thx for the help. I am really just learning this stuff so all the knowlege I can get is one step further!! oh and if i use the stock tranny and just use the reverse gear that’s all I would need to go In reverse right?
For my conversion I have been thinking in terms of high performace and good range which would require Ion Lith batts. But upon more research, it seems they lose over haf there potential in 4-5 years. At 15-20k for an Ion batt pack it would cost me more to replace batteries than pay for gasoline!! Am I way off base here or is this the way it is?? Any input would be great, thx
[QUOTE=sab187;2553]For my conversion I have been thinking in terms of high performace and good range which would require Ion Lith batts. But upon more research, it seems they lose over haf there potential in 4-5 years. At 15-20k for an Ion batt pack it would cost me more to replace batteries than pay for gasoline!! Am I way off base here or is this the way it is?? Any input would be great, thx[/QUOTE]
We build high performance electric vehicles using a regenerative breaking motor and controller package from a large supplier. We utilize 21KwH Lithium Ion batteries and a significant size motor. Our vehicle weighs around 1800 pounds and we get close to 200 miles on a charge. However when you kick in the 1100 ft. lbs of torque, create a few smoke clouds and get a gravitational face lift constantly, it tends to drop around 120 mile range with an extreme lead foot and 105 mile per hour speeds. So far our oldest production vehicle 5 years old and we just had the batteries tested by the manufacturer and still 96% after years of abuse. Our only difference is we use really good quality batteries with a really good quality energy management system. In the end we spend $32,000 in batteries and at the highest performance levels, we are anticipating 300,000 miles range before replacement (which equals about 15 years for us). However, we we balance out equal performance, fuel cost, maintenance, repairs, etc. we calculate a return on investment in 42 to 48 months with a 15 year overall life. Hope that helps.
Sigh… that is a big relief. I have been getting real enthusiastic about a sporty EV and to know that the batts will last long enough to pay for themselves a few times over is great. I don’t mind putting in the investment If I know I can get a good return. So my budget will include 15k for batts which should bring my total project to 25k or so not including car. Considering a base RX8 is 35k and they get 15 mpg, 25k is not bad!! Also I thought after reading your post that The Ion batts of 5 years ago probably aren’t as good as the new ones and they will only get better and less expensive I think. Is there any special way they must be cared for to get that kind of longevity? Anyways thx for the post:)
In the way of the batteries, we are fanatical about maintenance because all of applications are in extremely harsh environments. Huge spikes in temperature, extremely dusty conditions and subject to vibrations way above normal. However, we make sure that the batteries are mounted on a rubber isolated bracket system that absorbs vibration. Vibration is horrible on electronics. Also everything is strapped in tightly so there so no slop at all in our mounting. KEEP everything perfectly clean. Corrosion, dirt, grime, etc. all prohibit the best in positive flow of electricity. Again, because of the system we use, it runs a battery management system that monitors each battery cell. This communication method is done via fiber optic cable for perfect transmission. Again, the system we use is pretty high end. We went in with no budget restraints on batteries because this is the heart of the system. We spent our most money on batteries. Maintenance is pretty common sense when you come to electronics. We’re by no means experts in the EV field. We simply know what works in our application and what we found is right now EV technology is very expensive on a small scale. However for us and our application, i firmly believe that you can’t go into an electric vehicle right now solely based on return on investment. In the near future i think that will change but right now for us, it is more about meeting the needs of what we have to do, concern for the environment (biggest factor) and research and development for future uses and applications. In the end, if it’s just about dollars and cents (which is hard right now in a tough economy) it’s a tough investment to wrap your arms around. It has to be more about our future and utilizing green technology for long term advancement. However, in my personal opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) i think any investment in electric vehicle technology is worth every penny. Every little bit counts.
what company do you work with/for?
I’m interested, as I haven’t seen any fiber optic battery balancers…
[QUOTE=frodus;2562]what company do you work with/for?
I’m interested, as I haven’t seen any fiber optic battery balancers…[/QUOTE]
I am the CEO of Extreme Motorsports of California, Inc.
We build Sandcars, Off-Road Race Cars, We have a line of Extreme Security Vehicles used for private and government security agencies. We have several divisions that handle everything from prototyping, to mass production manufacturing. We’ve been in business since 1983 and are publicly traded on the stock market. Here’s a link to our recreational website. www.xmssandcars.com
ok, so no mention of the company’s background in EV’s? And only press releases from April 24th of this year?
Do you have pictures/info/user reviews of your products? do you have the names of the companies that manufacture the components of your EV’s? Not a parts list, but manufacturer list? What “system” do you use? Azure dynamics? AEVehicles? I don’t see anything on their BMS, or fiber optics.
I’m asking because from my POV, I haven’t heard of this company before, seen them post on any forums, and I see only a mention of wanting to release a product. Is there something tangible you have to support your claims? It seems its still a concept vehicle, not available, not being produced and has high claims.
Whats the ballpark figure for one of your electric sandrails? Its not even road legal! Its an offroad toy, and not meant for daily driving. How does it relate to this thread whatsoever… Do you have a road legal vehicle available right now for sale? Or are you willing to convert a car of his choice for his under $20,000?
Not with LiFePo, BMS and AC you’re not.
SAB187 - You can take a look at what this fellow is doing, he’s converting a BMW to electric and claims it’ll run faster than the ICE does and weigh the same, he’ll just have a 50 mile range. No idea what the motor he’s using costs, the only place I found that sells it just says “call for price” on all their Siemens motors. Other, lesser motors on the same site go for about 10 grand though, so likely to be 15 grand or so. The guy’s future plans are for a tow-behind generator to increase range when necessary.
12 grand for just the controller… wowzers.
I met Bob at an OEVA meeting last month, great guy. He’s very knowledgable. Works at Techtronics along with another guy I met at a Dorkbotpdx meeting. He’s developing his own BMS and using A123 Cells.
Just the cells, for 15kWh is going to be spendy for A123… 12 grand for a controller, 12-15 for the car (bet he sold the engine and exhaust etc.), charger is 6400, dc converter is 2800, plus the cost of heater, pumps, etc.
I can’t wait to see it, I still have to drop by his shop.
[QUOTE=frodus;2565]ok, so no mention of the company’s background in EV’s? And only press releases from April 24th of this year?
Do you have pictures/info/user reviews of your products? do you have the names of the companies that manufacture the components of your EV’s? Not a parts list, but manufacturer list? What “system” do you use? Azure dynamics? AEVehicles? I don’t see anything on their BMS, or fiber optics.
I’m asking because from my POV, I haven’t heard of this company before, seen them post on any forums, and I see only a mention of wanting to release a product. Is there something tangible you have to support your claims? It seems its still a concept vehicle, not available, not being produced and has high claims.
Whats the ballpark figure for one of your electric sandrails? Its not even road legal! Its an offroad toy, and not meant for daily driving. How does it relate to this thread whatsoever… Do you have a road legal vehicle available right now for sale? Or are you willing to convert a car of his choice for his under $20,000?
Not with LiFePo, BMS and AC you’re not.[/QUOTE]
I was simply answering the gentleman’s question in relation to batteries. We have thousands and thousands of hours of testing that can push a vehicle way beyond what anything on the street will ever experience. I’m not promoting our stuff, or what we do or selling our services to anyone but rather was stating our experience (over 25 years in the auto industry) as it pertained to a specific question. Additionally i simply answered your question also. There is no reason for me to “market” anything here. If your interested in our products you can email me directly and we can talk about it. Again, i’m not here to sell myself or anything we offer or build but rather was just answering the gentleman’s question based on our experience with quality batteries.
sure, its all possible, never argued that…
the question still remains, and I’m sure you’ll agree, how much money does someone have to spend on the EV…
You can’t have a cheap long range vehicle right now that is going to be light and high power. Not yet anyway.
I was also interested in your technology, to which you never replied.
The vehicles that we build and utilize this technology the most, are designed and built for Security Purposes. Whether private or government. Hence these applications require alot of technology to meet the needs of our individual client and can be quite costly. The recreational car we just released uses technology from Azure Dyanmics (motor and controller) and Batteries from AE Vehicles (the batteries that were designed for our application utilize a battery management system that operates off a fiber optic cable for communications.) The cost of the electric version using this technology over a comparable gas version is about $10,000 more +/-. Which in the scope of what we do is nothing.
Again, i’m not here to sell anything or market what we would do. If your looking for information on our products and/or vehicles, email me directly and i can give you info.
To answer your question, the cost is whatever you want it to be. You can convert vehicles to electric for as little as $10,000. You can also convert vehicles to electric for as much as $250,000. It all depends on the technology used. Pick a budget and pick technology to fit within that budget. I never insinuated what we did is cheap. in fact in my first comment i made it clear that the batteries we use cost over $30,000.
[QUOTE=Sandmaster;2573]The vehicles that we build and utilize this technology the most are designed and built for Security Purposes. Whether private or government. Hence these applications require alot of technology to meet the needs of our individual client and can be quite costly. The recreational car we just released uses technology from Azure Dyanmics (motor and controller) and Batteries from AE Vehicles (the batteries that were designed for our application utilize a battery management system that operates off a fiber optic cable for communications.) The cost of the electric version using this technology over a comparable gas version is about $10,000 more +/-. Which in the scope of what we do is nothing.
Again, i’m not here to sell anything or market what we would do. If your looking for information on our products and/or vehicles, email me directly and i can give you info.
To answer your question, the cost is whatever you want it to be. You can convert vehicles to electric for as little as $10,000. You can also convert vehicles to electric for as much as $250,000. It all depends on the technology used. Pick a budget and pick technology to fit within that budget. I never insinuated what we did is cheap. in fact in my first comment i made it clear that the batteries we use cost over $30,000.[/QUOTE]
There we go…
I was trying to get some information out of you, as there’s not much on your website about it, and only 1 article (posted a few places) that even touches on what you’ve done. I wasn’t meaning to be a jerk, but I wanted a little background on the claims of range/technology. Now, 10,000 over a comparible gas is very realistic indeed, especially for the ranges some people want to get out of these vehicles. And assuredly, this price will increase to no limit very quickly.
I think you should expose yourself more to the EV community, even if it is mostly government/security and leisure vehicles. I think many would be very interested to hear more about the BMS/battery system and get information and reviews on it.
I’m not discounting you, but trying to DIG to find out what I can, I’m also looking for LiFePo and BMS, so anything you can give us, would be great. Maybe we should start another thread with you introducing the technology you use, the products, and results of some of the range/performance testing. I know many would be interested, as many manufacturers don’t have this data, and there aren’t many people that have a full BMS/Lifepo system.
and to the original poster, the information he has given is fairly accurate on range and cost.
[QUOTE=frodus;2574]There we go…
I was trying to get some information out of you, as there’s not much on your website about it, and only 1 article (posted a few places) that even touches on what you’ve done. I wasn’t meaning to be a jerk, but I wanted a little background on the claims of range/technology. Now, 10,000 over a comparible gas is very realistic indeed, especially for the ranges some people want to get out of these vehicles. And assuredly, this price will increase to no limit very quickly.
I think you should expose yourself more to the EV community, even if it is mostly government/security and leisure vehicles. I think many would be very interested to hear more about the BMS/battery system and get information and reviews on it.
I’m not discounting you, but trying to DIG to find out what I can, I’m also looking for LiFePo and BMS, so anything you can give us, would be great. Maybe we should start another thread with you introducing the technology you use, the products, and results of some of the range/performance testing. I know many would be interested, as many manufacturers don’t have this data, and there aren’t many people that have a full BMS/Lifepo system.
and to the original poster, the information he has given is fairly accurate on range and cost.[/QUOTE]
Sent you a PM. Hope that helps.
Yes, fiber optic is perfect communication. We building optical fiber