Flying EV

EV Small Talk Tomorrow's EV
1

I recently had a plan for an electric vehicle which is not meant for the roads as much as for the skies. I have been attempting to find information on motors and batteries but not turning up anything really current. Also I can’t find the info I am looking for. Mostly for the motor I want speed the motor spins at, power, dimensions, weight/mass, and even where to buy them. I just keep finding news stories about possibly new technologies or really old technology.

Could someone point me in the right direction please?

2

actually the idea is not for a plane
it is more like a Chinook helicopter
the original plan was to build a small craft which was more compact but I quickly dispelled that idea mostly because of the batteries.
So it would have two motors and each would spin a rotor with the blades on it to generate lift

3

This is for human use. The motor need to be able to generate lift which is not equal in order to strafe and such so I’m not worried about a drive shaft. But you are right about the storage problem. That has become my biggest stepping stone. At least right after finding specs for the parts I need.

Also what does this mean:
“That bird is 50,000 gvw. The production 47 has 2) 3750 hp engines connected by a drive shaft so either end does not lift more than the other.”?

4

[QUOTE=hoverman;3215]This is for human use. The motor need to be able to generate lift which is not equal in order to strafe and such so I’m not worried about a drive shaft. But you are right about the storage problem. That has become my biggest stepping stone. At least right after finding specs for the parts I need.

Also what does this mean:
“That bird is 50,000 gvw. The production 47 has 2) 3750 hp engines connected by a drive shaft so either end does not lift more than the other.”?[/QUOTE]

Forget it. Such a concept, frankly, will never bear fruit. Much too heavy, even for tomorrow’s batteries… and judging by your question about GVW and the 3750 HP engines, you really need to do a lot of serious reading.

5

[QUOTE=voltsrus;3265]Forget it. Such a concept, frankly, will never bear fruit. Much too heavy, even for tomorrow’s batteries… and judging by your question about GVW and the 3750 HP engines, you really need to do a lot of serious reading.[/QUOTE]

Could you please point me in the direction of the proper material to read? As I said all I can even seem to find on the net are new articles about either how great or horrible this technology or that technology is. I see nothing useful.

My preliminary calculations show that to lift 1000lbs with the system I have setup, It will require a 583hp engine. My question was really just what GVW means. I have never seen that abbreviation before.

6

GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight.

There are vast resources of articles, books, and websites where the information you seek may be found - including Google, your local library, and your local college or university. In addition, there are many forums, not just this one, and some cities even have excellent EV enthusiasts groups that you may join - such as CalCars in California.

Good luck with your goal.

7

As another pilot, I agree.

8

alright thanks. Looks like I have a starting point and some time to design

9

I watched a SMALL plane at Oshkosh this year that was EV. It had almost no payload and about 90 - 120 minutes duration at 70 mph. Most planes of this size have a 3 - 6 hour flying range at 120 - 140 mph and cost a fraction of what this plane did. It is a start, though.

http://www.electriccarblogging.com/2008/08/electric-plane-flies-at-oshkosh-airshow/

10

hmm, interesting, first efficient helicopters were made because of the introduction of jet turbine engines, powered by turbo shaft, this engine has a large differences in terms of power to weight ratio, even an reciprocating engine barely fly the old helicopters- with a pilot and a small cargo only. problems would be batteries, 1st batteries don’t loose much weight as you consume electricity , compared to a full tank of gas to empty - weigh is reduced, 2nd what happens when you ran out of power? not like cars you’re still on the road.
another is that, if i am not mistaken is that propelling air requires lots of torque most of the choppers has a reduction gears for increasing torque but decreasing speed or rpm. but who knows may be technology change everything

11

goog luck for your goal…

12

Light weight flying machine expecting to come into the market for easy use

Albert

A good thoughts are expecting for flying machine

13

i suggest start with large wings each with a small electric motor propeller on the tips
efficient control flaps controlling the motor and incline at each end of the rotating wings

a very light frame below the rotating wings will hold the pilot and batteries.
the wings will be large almost like a glider wing
when the batteries run down the large wings will enable the craft to glide to a safe and controlled landing over a period of at least 5 minutes or even a small back up power battery of enough energy to get a safe landing in say 5 minutes.
a simple rudder with a bias to use the down wash of the blades- wings to keep the craft pointed in a direction.
a joy stick will shift the weight forward or back to change direction.
check out the specks of various model copters and their controlls.
tried to make a ram jet powered copter in 1947 but it blew up
(dad banned me from the work shop for a while)
The helicopter
the story here
good luck as even if the project does not work the experience will be of immense value to you (already you know GVW)

14

Check out ‘Project Firefly’ Helicopter - 15-20 minutes run time on high end LiPo Cells, converted trainer Sweitzer 300 - I believe it was - by Sikorsky.

To do this project - you are going to have to learn exotic material sciences, Exotic Composites, and Helicopter Control Systems - which are much more than just propellers spinning like a toy RC Model uses!

Materiel’s - Lithium Aluminum; Titanium Aluminum, Nextel Quartz Cloth, Graphite Prepreg or Infusion Techniques, as well as the same for Kevlar, S-Glass, and High Power - light weight motor designs. After that - your battery power and thermal management systems for them!

Lots and Lots of reading to do for a DIY project, and lots of money too! Start saving you $20’s! (going to need to save more thn penny’s for this project!)

15

Project Firefly: Sikorsky unveils electric helicopter technology demonstrator

well this project has lots of promise.
so simple with the electric motor in the hub of the rotors and separate motor for the tail rotor.very simple with modern tech controls.
its called in inventing KISS (keep it simple stupid)
its only recently that the power of the rotor motor can be built with modern rare earth magnets.
they project a 3 hour flight time whew???

16

The concept of the Ram Jet Helicopter could maybe be done - using instead of the Ram Jets, but Model RC Motors and Propellers of suitable size to pull or push the blades around the track, and make the blades as battery tubes, actually carrying the batteries?

Make it a 4, 5, or 6 blade main rotor, with each Blade carrying it’s own battery power, to provide just it’s own Motor and propeller system, using WiFi for Motor Power, throttle, plus energy and power feedback, and the tilt and track control design of the Ram Jet Helicopter?

The Blades could be a core which is a rectangle - wrapped with the proper cord profile for the helicopter blades, and the core tube could be an assembly of two Graphite Channels, and inside the channels go a string of LiPo RC Model Cells - each in the 45C - 55C Ratings, with 5+ Ah Capacity and the length of the channel could be wired in series and parallel for the needed power and voltage for run time and performance.

I would think 16 - 20 foot long for each blade would give a lot of length for such a battery pack build up! Lots of design testing both for building the cell and pack connections and testing - before closing the channel, and sealing up the whole package in a foam or other core for skinning to complete the blades, and don’t forget the hub attach structure!

Maybe instead of one RC Motor and Propeller combination per blade, 2 or more could be used, in both a push and a puller configuration with counter rotating propellers!

I know of an eBike Design using the motor and the batteries in the front hub system, and the throttle is a WiFi throttle! The Daymak Shadow (Yellow Racer looking Wheels!) daymak dot com. Go direct to shadowbike dot com ! They also sell the ebike in a box!

In any case - the issue is not what can you imagine, but what can you afford? (After you imagine it!)

Robert

17

The Gens Ace 50C 2S Hard-case 5000 mAh cells available from Hobby Partz list for just $37.50 Each but are out of Stock! Hobbypartz dot com. In Stock are the 40C 5000 mAh Hard Cases for just $33.42 each, or the 10,000 mAh Hard Case 2S Batteries for just $62.63!

“Thoroughly tested and rated at a continuous 50C, the all-new Gens Ace 5000mah 50C LiPo Hard Pack is perfect for the rigors of on and off road racing. It features improved internal materials, heavy gauge silicon wires, burst of 100C and applies to almost all 1/10 racing with a fast charging of 5C.”

Minimum Capacity: 5000mAh
Configuration: 2S1P / 7.4v
Pack Size: 138.50 * 46.0* 25mm (L * W * H)
Pack Weight:298 g
Peak Discharge (10sec): 100C

This means your use of this pack, in a Graphite Channel as the spar core of the Blades could be not much thicker than that 25 mm! Using Carbon Fiber C Channel, the Pack could be built in a tray like container, capped by a second C Channel, or a Carbon Fiber Stiffener to close it up. For experimenting - you could start with dragonplate dot com for supply up to 4’ length!

18

if you look at a normal copter at rest the blades sag a bit.
they get their lifting capacity by centrifugal force holding the blades stiff.
with batteries in the blade the G forces could be immense and the batteries could be crushed.
so it would be better to have the batteries in the body of the copter.
a simple slip ring with several rings to provide power to the tip motors as well as servos in the hub.
any way keep working and searching the net for ideas

19

[QUOTE=piersdad;10505]with batteries in the blade the G forces could be immense and the batteries could be crushed.[/QUOTE]

You could be right - quick idea to test this: Determine the Rotor Blade Length, subtract a few inches back for where the last battery would be placed, and make a small blade spinner (Private Centrifuge, if you will), put a max recording ‘G’ Meter there (A simple analog one from Aerobatic aircraft, correctly oriented for max positive G’s), and gradually spin it up to 10% of normal and max rotor RPM’s, then 20%, 30%, etc. until 110%, Checking the Maximum G’s recorded at each run, before resetting and starting the next Higher RPM Run!

If there is the possibility - you might want to put in the test rig at the place where the G-Meter is, a small RC First Person View (FPV) Video Camera to Record the G-Meter while testing, as well as while testing the cells.

Nobody lists the G Forces their batteries can take - so now you have your very own G-force Tester for Batteries!! And Voila, your new business:
“G-Force Research Institute, Inc.” (Government Grant’s - anyone?)

After you know the G-Forces at each run, you can then test one set of cells at the same point, knowing you are getting those same G-forces at that point, and you can determine - at the cost of the test rig plus one set of cells - if your idea is correct.

Remember - the Tesla Motors team went through a large number of Cells - testing to Destruction to determine the many failure modes, so as to determine how to overcome the failure modes, just for finalizing on a Cell, Module, and Pack Design!

Oh - the idea of testing the G-Forces and Cells survivability might be able to be numerically simulated in a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) 3D CAD Design, or alternatively, using CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics), so you would not have to build a test rig, but the Test rig might cost less, than the modeling time on a high end FEA / CFD System!

Robert Weekley

20

The concept sounds nice but not a practical one.You want to make a combination of somewhat chopper and a car with EV.