2 Basic Questions

Conversion Kits
1

I would like to know if anybody has attempted to do either of the following for an EV conversion, because my research hasn’t said anything about either so far, and they both seem theoretically possible -

  1. Use the plates to attach the conversion motor directly to the vehicle’s existing rear-wheel-drive shaft, and then use a switch or toggle housed in the old gear shift spot to control the forward and reverse functions of the motor directly without the use of a clutch or transmission. This would allow you to put the motor lower on the chassis, effectively where the clutch or tranny was, freeing up loads of weight and space for batteries!

and

  1. Using the existing braking systems in conjunction with electromagnetic coiling and embedding radially-placed ceramic magnets in a custom-machined brake drum, having the effect of a high-amperage generator sufficient to help recharge batteries during operation. I know others have suggested a similar thing and had it shot down because the belief is that a claw pole generator (that’s what it’s called, here’s the patent) would create friction and slow down the drive train, effectively using more power to generate the power than you’re getting back from it. In regard to attaching such a generator directly to the drive shaft or anywhere on the driving axle, I agree totally, but there’s been little talk of using the forward momentum of the large vehicle in conjunction with the non-driving wheels (like the front of my truck, where the brakes are) to accomplish this. First off, I don’t believe that radially-balanced ceramic magnets would create drag or extra friction in the context of the pre-existing brake drums or hubs, right next to the weight of the actual wheels, and what little there is might go to create extra centrifugal force for added forward momentum to counter the friction itself. The generational gain would be totally worth any extra friction, if there was any. Electromagnetic generation coiling in conjunction even with the existing brake pads, combined with a switch connected to the brakes (that would normally be going to a loud vaccuum pump), would activate the pad-coils as a magnet themselves causing the existing brake pads to clamp down on the magnetic drum. I’m not proposing a perpetual motion machine, just a way to gather back some of that forward momentum. If it makes you feel better, you could call them electromagnetic brakes with an added generation feature. :wink:

If anybody has taken either of these approaches to electric vehicles so far whatsoever, as in actually done the physical work of building these things, I would appreciate any documentation on either failures or successes. If there exists no such physical test, I’ll just have to build 'em. If you have any reason these two should not be wed, speak now or forever hold your pieces. :smiley:

2

Simple Answers:

  1. Yes
  2. Yes

Complex Answers:

  1. This is a common practice in the AC world of EV’s becuase the AC motor can sustain a higher range of RPM because of the amazing voltages that they use. (400+v) As far as DC is concerned, it can work, but only in the right circumstances. Like for example, this works wounderfully in a drag race situation because there are two motors working in series with each other. This lets you choose a higher gear ratio to utilize all of the massive low end torque of two fully powered DC motors. This is really the only practicle way to do a drag vehicle. A transmission will liquify at the torque this guy uses! Other than drag racing, direct drive is not feasble as far as overcoming the loss of batteryspace, effeciency from the added tranny etc. would have over haveing a single ratio.

  2. This is a great idea and I think a few people have had this idea. I am pretty sure this has appeared on an EV prototype a while back. Unfortunatly, this is something that cant be made to easily, unless you are an excellent fabricator and want to build all us EV’ers some electromagnetic brakes?? Not to mention design and build a controller for taking that energy and making it battery friendly… ): I wish we could just desing everything in autocad and just print it out, guess I will have to wait a half century on that technology…

Hope this helps!

3

1-yes 2-yes and no

A direct drive to the drive shaft work very well on my ev but you must make shure that your motor has the proper performances for this setup(stall torq and rpm range).My controller uses the reverse lamp curcuit that comes from the shifter to put the motor in reverse mode.

As for regeneration from inside the wheel , personally i prefer to regen from the motor itself since wheel area is subjected to strong impacts , water and other environment stress.

Did you browse austin ev web site they have some examples in the picture album.

4

Thanks guys,

Well I was really hoping to use the existing brake housing and other established systems as much as possible to accomplish all of this, so I would have to find some kind of machine shop or fabricator that could make a new brake drum that was embedded with the magnets. Now I’m actually thinking less that I would get a proper kit motor and use the driveshaft, but I might see about finding a way to get another set of brakes and drums for the back and do basically the same thing in reverse as up front. The official reason why the principle of regeneration doesn’t work so well for gathering from forward motion is the magnetic drag created by the motion of electrons in your generation coils, but actually my original design might counteract this factor and maybe even work like an attractor-type motor. I would try and replicate the construction per front and back set almost identically, the only thing that would differ is the direction of the curve of the coils - forward and in on the back, versus forward and out on the front. For reverse you’d switch the currents on both, to park or brake you’d switch the leads on one set only, and for normal operation it stays as-is. My dream objective would be to make them completely interdependent, essentially making it as if one set of magnets were propelling the other, without any external voltage… like hold two repelling magnets close and feel that force, but imagine that the only place that force can go is into forward spin. The conduit and limiter of that magnetic force would be the coiling and the accelerator. Kind of a far stretch, sure, but it’s positively stuck in my head and it’s something I’ve wondered about since I was a kid. My test will probably be creating a small version of the front half of the system for a bicycle or something and hooking that up to a small battery charger… If it works the way I’m thinking, the draw on the coils would work almost like leads on a battery itself, only instead of creating a chemical reaction to make electrons it would create a magnetic reaction in the form of the wheel spinning. Here’s my drawing of that part of the system (imagine coils and magnets are both going all the way around circumference)…

600×697

If any of this works, I would advise you not to bring your iPod on board!

5

This is one of those theories that has to be tested first to see if it will work. The bad thing about high powered magnets is that they oftentimes don’t work like we’d expect. They can pick up some attraction to something else which will affect the pull on the electric coils and make the system unstable which would affect the balance and efficiency of the system. Then again, it could just go fine. I’ve been building some prototypes like this to work on a charging system but on a mechanical separation level instead to resist the drag created by the magnetic push. The only other thing that may cause a problem is that the factory brake drums are usually made from a ferritic metal so the magnets are attracted to the drum itself so you’d have to have the drums changed (along with parts of the axle) to a stainless steel or titanium or something else non-magnetic so the entire system wouldn’t become magnetized, therefore rendering the system ineffective.

It is still early for me here because I work second shift so I may have read the entire post wrong and have just filled your head with worthless information but I hope it helps some. :smiley:

6

I am new to the EV forum. I have had this idea and would like some feed back from the audience as to wheather it would work or not. Maybe this is the wrong place to post this but here goes.
If I build an EV, light weight, could I run generators from a wind turbine in the front of the vehicle? See generators here: http://hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html Lots of power/amps. See setup at bottom of page. Going down the road there is a lot of wind pressure to power the generators. I know around town might be a problem but they put out power at low speed. If I could come up with the right combination of motors and controllers etc., which I am not familiar with, could this be done? I know some batteries would have to be used but not as many. Sorry for not being up on this stuff but all ideas count as a contribution toward a better EV.
Thanks for your time
Bernie:rolleyes:

7

Doubtful this would work. Air turbines usually turn at 1000RPM at the most. Since you are looking at installing in a car, this means that you will have a very small profile facing the wind, so even though there is air pressure, we are talking about a very small quantity of actual air that can move something.

Next problem, to use one of these alternators you’ll need some sort of gear reduction to turn the alt at a decent speed, and that gear reduction will make it hard for the blades to turn. So, since you are now looking at a fan with little airflow and resistance to turning, you’ll need to look at something like a duct to gather more air. For testing purposes, I’d look at just doing a flat vent under the car, with the alternator on the back of it. Have the vent as large as possible in the front, narrowing as it approaches the rear with the fan inside the ducting. You’ll also need something like a squirrel cage fan to catch the air, or maybe a turbine setup like a jet engine. Another consideration would be half a turbocharger. You could direct ALL the airflow into the turbo’s exhaust section, with the shaft connected to the alternator instead of the intake side of the turbo. In fact, this would probably be the best way of doing it. A turbo unit might not even require any gear reduction since they can turn as much as 15,000RPM, but it would require some sort of oiling system to keep it alive at those RPM levels.

Looks like for this an SC-60 might be the best choice, with a voltage regulator. With a 14V voltage regulator the voltage would convert to amps (watts divided by volts equals amps, and a regulator will convert voltage to amperage like it does on a car’s alternator), and that power could be fed to the batteries via the charge control system. I’d not try to feed big amps to the batteries directly. Another thing, with an external regulator you can do the voltage conversion directly at the charge system, reducing the need for fat cabling. Big volts with little amps works over small cabling well, but little volts with big amps requires very thick cabling to prevent heat damage and huge power loss.

Then, you’d need a way of measuring power both with and without the fan set in place. No idea how you might do this, but you’ll want to measure this to see if the resistance of the wind charging system reduces overall power more or less than the power it generates. And, realistically speaking, you can only expect something like this to be a range extender, not a full power production device. I don’t see this as a perpetual energy machine, but more of a way of capturing the otherwise wasted energy used to push against air during motion.

8

Thank you Telco. I appreciate the feed back. I had in mind a big duct at the front of the vehicle to gather as much air as possible with some sort of grille to hide it. I didn’t think about a squirrel cage but that might work also. There is a lot of good stuff coming that will help with EV’s and I can’t wait until it gets here. :confused:
Thanks again.
Bernie

[QUOTE=Telco;2800]Doubtful this would work. Air turbines usually turn at 1000RPM at the most. Since you are looking at installing in a car, this means that you will have a very small profile facing the wind, so even though there is air pressure, we are talking about a very small quantity of actual air that can move something.

Next problem, to use one of these alternators you’ll need some sort of gear reduction to turn the alt at a decent speed, and that gear reduction will make it hard for the blades to turn. So, since you are now looking at a fan with little airflow and resistance to turning, you’ll need to look at something like a duct to gather more air. For testing purposes, I’d look at just doing a flat vent under the car, with the alternator on the back of it. Have the vent as large as possible in the front, narrowing as it approaches the rear with the fan inside the ducting. You’ll also need something like a squirrel cage fan to catch the air, or maybe a turbine setup like a jet engine. Another consideration would be half a turbocharger. You could direct ALL the airflow into the turbo’s exhaust section, with the shaft connected to the alternator instead of the intake side of the turbo. In fact, this would probably be the best way of doing it. A turbo unit might not even require any gear reduction since they can turn as much as 15,000RPM, but it would require some sort of oiling system to keep it alive at those RPM levels.

Looks like for this an SC-60 might be the best choice, with a voltage regulator. With a 14V voltage regulator the voltage would convert to amps (watts divided by volts equals amps, and a regulator will convert voltage to amperage like it does on a car’s alternator), and that power could be fed to the batteries via the charge control system. I’d not try to feed big amps to the batteries directly. Another thing, with an external regulator you can do the voltage conversion directly at the charge system, reducing the need for fat cabling. Big volts with little amps works over small cabling well, but little volts with big amps requires very thick cabling to prevent heat damage and huge power loss.

Then, you’d need a way of measuring power both with and without the fan set in place. No idea how you might do this, but you’ll want to measure this to see if the resistance of the wind charging system reduces overall power more or less than the power it generates. And, realistically speaking, you can only expect something like this to be a range extender, not a full power production device. I don’t see this as a perpetual energy machine, but more of a way of capturing the otherwise wasted energy used to push against air during motion.[/QUOTE]

9

Telco
I came across this article and would like to know how to build this thing. You could run a Stirling engine to run a generator for your EV. Just think how this would benefit every one. Watch this video.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt_Water_Using_Radio_Waves#Videos

I would like to see someone work on this burning salt water to run a Stirling engine to power a generator in turn to drive an EV. Any takers? I would do it but a radio frequency generator is expensive/